Mac 10 Open Bolt Easy to Convert to Full Auto
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09-25-202108:37 PM #1
Registered User
Can You Legally Convert a Semi-Auto Open Bolt MAC 10 to Full Auto?
Sorry if this has been asked before, but I saw an open bolt semi-auto Mac 10 for sale for quite cheap, and was wondering since the open bolt semi-auto MACs are considered "machine guns", does that mean i can slap in the FA parts and call it a day, or would that be considered manufacturing a post-86 MG? Would be cool to save a coupon thousand bucks. Either way i submitted my FFL 07/SOT, hopefully that gets approved soon.
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09-25-202108:59 PM #2
Registered User
So how long have your worked for the AFT?Originally Posted by skankmyway
Sorry if this has been asked before, but I saw an open bolt semi-auto Mac 10 for sale for quite cheap, and was wondering since the open bolt semi-auto MACs are considered "machine guns", does that mean i can slap in the FA parts and call it a day, or would that be considered manufacturing a post-86 MG? Would be cool to save a coupon thousand bucks. Either way i submitted my FFL 07/SOT, hopefully that gets approved soon.
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09-25-202109:00 PM #3
Registered User
Nope, the Hughes amendment (the 86 MG ban) essentially bans ALL mgs for civilian ownership. It then carves out a single exception for those "legally registered" before the ban. Unless you have paper on a particular MG, it's an illegal item regardless of when it was made or other considerations.
Once you are an 07/SOT you would be better to make a new MG from a parts kit and a shop-bent receiver flat as the value of a Post Sample is rarely more than what the parts would bring. The value of a "grandfathered" open bolt MAC, even a 'cheap" one, is many times that of a parts kit.
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09-25-202110:38 PM #4
Registered User
once you become an 07/02, you could just F2 and modify that Open Bolt into a FA, but you would be toasting a roughly $2000 gun for something you might be able ( not knowing your skill level ) to build for cheaper from a parts kit.
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09-26-202101:12 AM #5
Registered User
Oh. I was thinking since the pre-86 open-bolt semi-auto Mac 10s are already considered transferable machine guns by the ATF, that you could just make it full auto and they wouldn't care.
Last edited by skankmyway; 09-26-2021 at 01:20 AM.
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09-26-202101:16 AM #6
Registered User
I already have a transferable Mac 10 .45, just thought it'd be cool to own another. I recently was working on converting a PPSh-41 to semi-auto. Had to cut the bolt and make it a closed bolt, and striker fired. I haven't finished constructing the upper, and barrel yet to ATF spec, so I'm decent at welding, etc. I filled out the 07 FFL, so i can hopefully design and manufacture my own firearms.
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09-26-202101:20 AM #7
Registered User
Oh. I was thinking since the pre-86 open-bolt semi-auto Mac 10s are already considered transferable machine guns by the ATF, that you could just make it full auto and they wouldn't care.Oh. I was thinking since the pre-86 open-bolt semi-auto Mac 10s are already considered transferable machine guns by the ATF, that you could just make it full auto and they wouldn't care.
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09-26-202111:05 AM #8
Open bolts semis are NOT considered MGs if made before certain dates which vary by model but all in the early 1980's (might be some in the very late 1970's). Those made AFTER the dates are considered MGs but I doubt if any were made, what's the point?
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09-26-202112:15 PM #9
UZI Talk Life Member
To be clear, it is my understanding that the Firearms Protection Act did not ban the ownership of of machineguns to private individuals or entities. It ceased the registration of machineguns for private ownership on May 19, 1986. All US made machineguns registered Post May are for Government Agency use only. The Gun Control Act of '68 limited machineguns imported for Government Agency use only and as dealer samples.
As far as open bolt semi auto pistols made before all open bolt firearms were considered machineguns, the courts have ruled that the ATF does not have the power to "grandfather" firearms. The case was concerned with pre-81 DIASs. The court clarified that the ATF (as part of the Executive Branch) has no jurisdiction to decide a date for which the legal status of a firearm or machinegun can or can not be owned by private individuals or entities. The ATF can only determine whether a design is or is not a firearm or machinegun. The status of whether such a machinegun is or is not legal to own by a private entity goes back to the law as to whether registered in the Nation Firearms Act registry. If so on what date the item was registered? Since the ATF has determined that a DIAS is a machinegun, only DIASs registered prior to May 19, 1986 are legally possessed by private individuals or entities. This case delt specifically about the status of some DIASs that where manufactured prior to 1981 (when the ATF determined all DIAS to be machineguns).
It is my understanding that the ATF has determined that all open bolt designed firearms are machineguns. So it would seem to me that all open bolt Mac style firearms have been determined to be machineguns. As far as legal status, that would go back to whether or not that firearm was entered into the NFA registry and on what date. To be sure, many here would disagree with the statements above. To be honest I don't care as I have no "dog in this fight". The ATF does not have the resources to go looking for problems. But I have no interest in adding a pre-81 DIAS or open bolt semi pistol to my collection. Others can decide for themselves. YMMV.
Scott
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09-26-202112:57 PM #10
If you are seriously going to be an 07/02, you have a lot of reading to do. I would start with the literature the govt supplies when you apply for an FFL.
Last edited by Gaujo; 09-26-2021 at 01:15 PM.
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09-26-202101:36 PM #11
AFT (AKA ATF) determines a lot of things and they change their determinations all the time. Therefore, their opinion changes on a yearly/daily basis. With that in mind, they can determine an AR-15 is a machine gun. Heck, it's even readily convertible with a coat hanger.
However, there's a 40 PLUS years precedent for the numerous SEMI open bolt out there (sm10, sm11, kg9, voere 22, marlin model 50 and the Thompson look alike clones to name a few).
What I'm trying to say is the AFT is a shit show and they can't get anything right but I do think the old open bolts are good to go for now.
I agree with everyone else, if you're going to be an SOT, just make a new one and do not use a rare gun.
Last edited by KickStand; 09-26-2021 at 02:35 PM.
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09-26-202107:58 PM #12
Registered User
The answer is yes. If you have an approved Form 1 from <1986Sorry if this has been asked before, but I saw an open bolt semi-auto Mac 10 for sale for quite cheap, and was wondering since the open bolt semi-auto MACs are considered "machine guns", does that mean i can slap in the FA parts and call it a day, or would that be considered manufacturing a post-86 MG? Would be cool to save a coupon thousand bucks. Either way i submitted my FFL 07/SOT, hopefully that gets approved soon.
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09-26-202108:00 PM #13
Registered User
From the ATF NFA Handbook:If you are seriously going to be an 07/02, you have a lot of reading to do. I would start with the literature the govt supplies when you apply for an FFL.
"Held: The SM10 and SM11A1 pistols and the SAC carbine are designed to shoot automatically more
than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. Consequently, the SM10
and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines are machine guns as defined in Section 5845(b) of the Act.
With respect to the machine gun classification of the SM10 and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines,
under the National Firearms Act, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. 7805(b), this ruling will not be applied to SM10
and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines manufactured or assembled before June, 21, 1982. Accordingly,
SM10 and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines, manufactured or assembled on or after June 21, 1982,
will be subject to all the provisions of the National Firearms Act and 27 C.F.R., Part 4"I'm not stupid, i just don't understand how turning an already registered "machine gun" made after 82 to full auto machine gun is a felony, when it's already registered as a machine gun, but that's ATF logic for ya. This is why i ask before i do. I would just rather have a transferrable MG, than a post sample, even if i can make a post sample for $500. I mainly signed up for the 07/02 so i don't have to worry about the ATF's never ending menstrual cycle of indecisiveness, and technicalities when designing my own firearms.
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09-26-202108:00 PM #14
Registered User
Your last paragraph is inaccurate. You can still buy and sellTo be clear, it is my understanding that the Firearms Protection Act did not ban the ownership of of machineguns to private individuals or entities. It ceased the registration of machineguns for private ownership on May 19, 1986. All US made machineguns registered Post May are for Government Agency use only. The Gun Control Act of '68 limited machineguns imported for Government Agency use only and as dealer samples.
As far as open bolt semi auto pistols made before all open bolt firearms were considered machineguns, the courts have ruled that the ATF does not have the power to "grandfather" firearms. The case was concerned with pre-81 DIASs. The court clarified that the ATF (as part of the Executive Branch) has no jurisdiction to decide a date for which the legal status of a firearm or machinegun can or can not be owned by private individuals or entities. The ATF can only determine whether a design is or is not a firearm or machinegun. The status of whether such a machinegun is or is not legal to own by a private entity goes back to the law as to whether registered in the Nation Firearms Act registry. If so on what date the item was registered? Since the ATF has determined that a DIAS is a machinegun, only DIASs registered prior to May 19, 1986 are legally possessed by private individuals or entities. This case delt specifically about the status of some DIASs that where manufactured prior to 1981 (when the ATF determined all DIAS to be machineguns).
It is my understanding that the ATF has determined that all open bolt designed firearms are machineguns. So it would seem to me that all open bolt Mac style firearms have been determined to be machineguns. As far as legal status, that would go back to whether or not that firearm was entered into the NFA registry and on what date. To be sure, many here would disagree with the statements above. To be honest I don't care as I have no "dog in this fight". The ATF does not have the resources to go looking for problems. But I have no interest in adding a pre-81 DIAS or open bolt semi pistol to my collection. Others can decide for themselves. YMMV.
Scott
Existing Open bolt semis.
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09-26-202108:09 PM #15
Registered User
I've talked to alot of people, and some say it would be fine to convert it, others say it wouldn't. It seems like this is one of those issues that are borderline, since the open-bolt semi i had an eye on was one of the few made after the June '82 cut off date, and was manufactured in July of '82. I'm just going to stay clear away.
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09-26-202109:04 PM #16
Registered User
Regardless of what ATF considers an open bolt semi to be, the law is only MGs REGISTERED prior to May 1986 are able to be legally owned by a non/SOT/LE/.GOV. So unless the person selling you an open bolt semi has an approved NFA form to go with it and it is transferred to you on a Form 4, it is not a legally owned MG. The actual wording in the law is "lawfully possessed", which in this case means it is in the NFTR and papered out to the owner.
While open bolt semi MACs and KG9s are sold without issue every day, if ATF ever changes their mind and they start being tracked down, you cannot claim you lawfully possessed them without paperwork from the NFA branch. Like finding Grandpappy's old Tommygun he brought back from WWII hidden in his duffel bag, existing MGs can not be registered unless an amnesty is in effect.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
(o)
(1)Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.
(2)This subsection does not apply with respect to—
(A)a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(B)any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.
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09-26-202109:09 PM #17
UZI Talk Life Member
skank,you are missing the point here.Unless the semi open bolt gun in your possession has an approved form 1 from before 1986 you can NOT turn it into a machinegun now unless you have a manufactures license. If you have said license and turn it into a machinegun you would destroy the value it has as a semi open bolt gun.
My Sex Life Is Like A Ferrari,I Don't Have A Ferrari.
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09-26-202109:25 PM #18
UZI Talk Life Member
Can you currently transfer open bolt semi auto firearms as Title I firearms? Yes, that is true. By the same token as I previously posted " To be sure, many here would disagree with the statements above". That just means that the ATF has not been forced to deal with the issue. Only Congress can change laws. ATF has determined that the open bolt mechanism is a machinegun. They can not "grandfather" the open bolt semi auto guns. That they choose not to enforce does not change the status of the open bolt guns. Reversing the determination that all open bolt firearms are machineguns would. It would be a very expensive and difficult endeavor to track down all open bolt firearms that where not registered as machineguns. So ATF has decided to ignore the problem.Your last paragraph is inaccurate. You can still buy and sell
Existing Open bolt semis.Could you as a 07/02 manufacturer file a Form 2 to register an open bolt semi auto as a machinegun? Of course, but the date of conversion would be post May 19, 1986. So that machinegun would be considered a Post Sample machinegun. If changing the configuration from Title I to Title II, the date of approval of the conversion would be the date of registration for a non SOT holder and the date of submission of the Form 2 would be for the SOT holder. Only machineguns entered in the NFA registry a legal. All unregistered machineguns are considered contraband. Only open bolt guns that have been registered into the NFA registry prior to May 19, 1986 are considered transferable to private individuals or entities.I've talked to alot of people, and some say it would be fine to convert it, others say it wouldn't. It seems like this is one of those issues that are borderline, since the open-bolt semi i had an eye on was one of the few made after the June '82 cut off date, and was manufactured in July of '82. I'm just going to stay clear away.
Scott
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09-26-202109:40 PM #19
Registered User
No that's exactly what I mean. It's a open bolt semi made after June '82, and it has an approved NFA Form 1. I thought it would be legal to do since it does have a Form 1, but I think I'm just going to stay far away like I said. If i get the 07/02 approved, there would be no need for it and I'd hate to destroy a collectable.Regardless of what ATF considers an open bolt semi to be, the law is only MGs REGISTERED prior to May 1986 are able to be legally owned by a non/SOT/LE/.GOV. So unless the person selling you an open bolt semi has an approved NFA form to go with it and it is transferred to you on a Form 4, it is not a legally owned MG. The actual wording in the law is "lawfully possessed", which in this case means it is in the NFTR and papered out to the owner.
While open bolt semi MACs and KG9s are sold without issue every day, if ATF ever changes their mind and they start being tracked down, you cannot claim you lawfully possessed them without paperwork from the NFA branch. Like finding Grandpappy's old Tommygun he brought back from WWII hidden in his duffel bag, existing MGs can not be registered unless an amnesty is in effect.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
(o)
(1)Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.
(2)This subsection does not apply with respect to—
(A)a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(B)any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.
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09-26-202110:42 PM #20
Details on the whole......
It's a open bolt semi made after June '82, and it has an approved NFA Form 1
Is this thing dirt cheap?
You have applied for FFL..?
your considering playing with fire..?
Do you know the value of open bolt M series guns..?WTF is going on here...?
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Source: http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?96232-Can-You-Legally-Convert-a-Semi-Auto-Open-Bolt-MAC-10-to-Full-Auto
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